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sholladay 11 hours ago [-]
This made me think of The Thing, a fascinating listening device made by the Soviets that was completely passive until powered remotely. Very difficult to detect when unpowered.
The Eye of Sauron paper does acknowledge the limitations that would likely prevent it from working against such a device. Impressive nonetheless. True privacy/security is just very hard!
andai 5 hours ago [-]
Turns out we're all livestreamers:
> In 1985, Wim van Eck published the first unclassified technical analysis of the security risks of emanations from computer monitors.[2][3] This paper caused some consternation in the security community, which had previously believed that such monitoring was a highly sophisticated attack available only to governments; van Eck successfully eavesdropped on a real system, at a range of hundreds of metres, using just $15 worth of equipment plus a television set.
In this context "emanations" means a signal allowing the listener to reconstruct the image and read the words on the screen.
I'm not sure if it works with modern monitors (CRTs were pretty high voltage!), but they are also quite "loud" in EMF. A fun experiment is to walk around your house with a portable radio in AM mode. You can "hear" all the electronics!
fc417fc802 3 hours ago [-]
It seems like it must be much more limited these days. Display transport is packetized, often encrypted (HDCP), and designed to be capable of exceedingly high bandwidths. Versus a CRT that comparatively blasted out a nice sequential analog signal for anyone to listen in on.
That said, if you're using a wireless keyboard it's pretty much a given that the keystrokes can be recovered by timing analysis regardless of the manner of wireless connection. At least unless you happen to hunt and peck painfully slowly.
teeray 1 hours ago [-]
As a Neal Stephenson fan, Van Eck phreaking is where my mind went after reading the abstract. Glad to see the technique is alive and well today :)
specialist 49 minutes ago [-]
Yup.
My father worked in defense. He shared lore about the genesis of tempest, the requirement to use faraday cages to protect secrets, gear, etc.
The story goes that some kind of red team set up shop down the road from some missile tests (or something) with some simple gear. Afterwards, they shared the launch codes used, shocking all the brass. Hence the need for shielded comms.
thih9 8 hours ago [-]
The Thing is full of surprises to this day.
> The Thing was designed by Soviet Russian inventor Leon Theremin, best known for his invention of the theremin, an electronic musical instrument.
saidnooneever 7 hours ago [-]
the rabbit hole goes so much deeper than this 'Thing'.
An interesting read is Spy Catchers written by first science officer from MI5 in cold war. he was tasked with reversing listening devices and making them.. it doesnt spill all the beans but givea a good insight into how far they were already then.
u can hardly imagine what tech exists now 40-60 years later as electronics and computers have shrunk drastically and infinitely more weird material properties are discovered....
I suppose you can activate such device by just sweeping a high power radio wave over a frequency range. At that point, you can see what signals it sends back. Excite, then listen. This is how a lot of detection methods work, including radar, so it is not a weird idea.
Also there are ways to detect diode junctions now.
HolyLampshade 7 hours ago [-]
Seems like the devices they found in the IBM Selectrics during Project GUNMAN (though, same ‘conflict’).
Haseltine’s The Spy in Moscow Station is also a fascinating account of events.
nephihaha 23 minutes ago [-]
What if the Thing was supposed to be found? People think it was for surveillance. Maybe it was to make the Americans more paranoid.
walrus01 8 hours ago [-]
TSCM services commonly employ non linear junction detectors, if you have a legit need and money to spend and worry that your offices have been bugged (or are at risk of being bugged), you absolutely can hire them. This isn't really a new thing. More advanced highly portable RF equipment, portable spectrum analyzers and things built with relatively low-cost SDR that talk to Linux SBCs make the equipment to do this a lot less costly than it used to be.
If the intention is to RF "illuminate" an array of DRAM, portable GaN based amps in different bands capable of directing RF at an area (let's say, with a set of horn antennas on a plastic rolling cart being taken around an office) are also a lot smaller and less power hungry than they used to be.
Edit: Looking at the Zhang PDF, the box next to the laptop in figure 15 is a USRP 210 SDR, and a basic log periodic antenna on a PCB.
So really this boils down to "we're using a COTS SDR repurposed as a spectrum analyzer and we've written custom software to sniff what it looks like when DRAM is actively being used in a small embedded device". Some serious TSCM firms have been doing this for 35 years, just the equipment is a hell of a lot smaller and cheaper now.
Zanfa 9 hours ago [-]
Dan Gelbart's lecture on sensors[0] explains another fascinating method in detail using RF as well as the optical scanning method mentioned in the original video. The full lecture is worth a watch, but the timestamp is where the RF method explanation starts.
That Dan Gelbart lecture where he also explains how retroreflection[0] is used to detect remote viewing, was it anything with a lens or even human eye is really good.
Reminds me of how every random electronic item would seemingly pick up audible interference from nearby GSM phones. Nonlinear components would involuntarily modulate the RF signal.
BlackRabbit1 10 hours ago [-]
Interesting - but 800-900MHz (the mentioned harmonic frequencies) are blasted with LTE and 5G in Europe.
But maybe with a sharp filter (there's a gap between up- and downlink) it can be used with a RTLSDR. But the RTLSDR hates close strong signals as its 8-Bit ADC doesn't have much dynamic range.
ashkankiani 10 hours ago [-]
This is a genius approach. I was wondering how to approach this problem myself the other day, and other things like audio poisoning for ambient listening devices. This gives me hope for being able to actually fight in the cat and mouse game of privacy that's coming up.
hanibrel 10 hours ago [-]
I'd have asked the speaker if he scanned his actual hotel room at the conference.
I'm actually quite certain that he did. Imagine the scoop, opening your conference presentation with what you found upstairs the evening before!
gblargg 11 hours ago [-]
So the mitigation is to have larger memory buffers so processing/emissions can be delayed (assuming simple shielding isn't enough).
adrian_b 10 hours ago [-]
Right, but adding a big memory chip may be difficult in a video camera that must be as small as possible, except when using some expensive packaging method, with chip stacking.
Ensuring almost perfect shielding is cheaper and simpler. The camera should be completely enclosed in a metallic case, with only 2 small holes, for the camera lens and for the antenna output. Also its schematic should include adequate filtering components superposed to the integrated circuit packages, to minimize the length of the metal traces with variable potential, which radiate electromagnetic waves.
Improved shielding and filtering should reduce a lot the detection distance from the 20 meter range obtained with ordinary cameras, perhaps to a range under 1 meter.
If the camera is designed to not watch continuously, but to halt its activity for random intervals, it may have great chances to not be detected even by close sweeps with the camera detector.
gblargg 3 hours ago [-]
Hmmm, another approach might be to constantly emit signals, so the interesting ones are lost in the noise. This is similar to another commenter about making the algorithms produce the same amount of noise regardless of input as in cryptography (time-constant, energy-constant, etc.)
someguyiguess 12 hours ago [-]
Eye of Sauron to counter Palantir. Makes sense.
yawpitch 11 hours ago [-]
Does it though? The Eye of Sauron represents the being so sufficiently single-minded that it corrupted the Palantir and weaponized them for evil ends.
Yes but only for detecting 5ghz WiFi cameras (actively streaming). If it’s 2.4ghz WiFi, or Ethernet wired, or it’s just recording to an sd card, it can’t be detected using the quadRF.
ranger_danger 13 hours ago [-]
The speaker in the video was extremely difficult for me to understand but the idea seems quite clever.
What I'm most surprised about is just how well it actually works... I did not think such EM fluctuations would be usably detectable from several meters away... but I suppose this may be moreso due to improper/lack of shielding in the first place, which I would think should be easily fixable in most products to mitigate this type of detection.
Karliss 9 hours ago [-]
Shielding is addressed in the paper. They did some testing covering it with aluminum sheet (from coke can not aluminum foil) which decreased detection range from 30 to 2m. That's still not a bad range compared to other similar projects attempting to detect hidden cameras using EM. But with a properly designed shield the detection is probably even worse. Within limitations section they mention, they had problems detecting some smartphone cameras due them using low power memory and in general being better shielded.
hanibrel 10 hours ago [-]
> The speaker in the video was extremely difficult for me to understand but the idea seems quite clever.
With a bit of practice it's actually quite easy to understand the accent of Chinese speakers as they have some typical patterns and speak slowly.
I must say, I loved listening to him because this was genuine human work. Human made slides (with lots of ugliness coming with PowerPoint), human typos, human grammar mistakes, all of it. It may be flawed in some ways but this fully removed any doubts that a slop machine came even near it. So refreshing in this day and age!
nomilk 12 hours ago [-]
Youtube subtitles can help in situations like this. Although they're not able to understand perfectly either. Example (1m0s) speaker means to say 'they can be disguised' but subtitles are:
> they can be disgusted
I think the speaker genuinely gets that word wrong; a malapropism (as opposed to the auto-generated English subtitles getting it wrong).
Jackobrien 13 hours ago [-]
This feels very impactful for national security and corporate espionage.
u1hcw9nx 10 hours ago [-]
They already use fiber-optic borescopes with no electronics on the lens side to create distance from electronics when their targets do sweeps.
You can also have opto-mechanical listening devices where the electronics are 100 m away. There is a vibrating membrane at one end, and a laser through the fiber reads the vibrations.
rsamtravis 14 hours ago [-]
Okay who can build me one of these?
asdff 11 hours ago [-]
Back to microfilm for the spies
IshKebab 5 hours ago [-]
That's clever. I think you could improve localisation by instead of just turning the light on and off, have a spinning light like a lighthouse, and then match the timing of it with the timing of the EMR changes.
akoboldfrying 13 hours ago [-]
Really interesting concept! I would not have thought of EMR variation as a usable side channel for this.
IIUC, the EMR increases following scene changes (like a light being turned on or off) are a result of the fact that video codecs try hard to compress similar images. So, I speculate that an "extremely bad codec" that simply dumps raw pixels to storage would not produce such variation, and therefore remain undetectable?
fwlr 12 hours ago [-]
Potentially, although raw pixel data presents its own challenges - one 1080p60 camera will fill a terabyte of storage in less than an hour.
A better mitigation might be to take a leaf from cryptography and develop a constant-time codec.
hanibrel 10 hours ago [-]
Non-branching memory accesses?
akoboldfrying 8 hours ago [-]
Makes sense. It might be possible to develop a codec that, in addition to being constant-time, has the property that every prefix of the bits encoding a unit (e.g., a frame or block within a frame) encodes an approximate version of that unit, where the longer the prefix the more faithful the approximation is. Then each unit could be output in full to storage, and the "output file pointer" could then be wound back to a point dependent on how many bits are actually required to represent it accurately -- so keeping the full amount for a full scene change, or just a few bits for the "same as last time" common case.
fwlr 6 hours ago [-]
Oh, that is fascinating - I think a scheme like that could very well give you constant-space as well as constant-time, while calculating and preserving the desired compression information for use in transmission (which itself could separately be made constant for detectable channels).
Melatonic 10 hours ago [-]
Like all I frames in H264 ?
9 hours ago [-]
ralusek 2 hours ago [-]
The former owner of my house has cameras littered around the outside of the house and 2 inside (these aren't discrete they're specifically security cameras). I'm like 95% sure I took over the appropriate accounts. My neighbors said that he was a former Airforce guy and was obsessed with gadgets and "spy conventions," though.
Long story short: I'd like this device please.
bezusfaphoon 13 hours ago [-]
phenomenal
bossyTeacher 4 hours ago [-]
I feel bad for Tolkien. The names in his beautiful works are being semantically hijacked by tech bros and authoritarian types with surveillance wet dreams.
soltanov 13 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
terribleperson 12 hours ago [-]
I wonder if that shielding would show up in WiFi imaging techniques.
12 hours ago [-]
SubiculumCode 13 hours ago [-]
True...but I suppose such shielding may make it harder to disguise...maybe...I don't know. In any case, I wonder how it would do in noisy environments (a couple of computers and phones in the room).
12 hours ago [-]
mike_d 12 hours ago [-]
Exactly. Professional grade equipment already has extensive shielding to mitigate non-linear junction detectors.
nomilk 12 hours ago [-]
Would a typical airbnb perv have the know-how to produce a professional grade setup? E.g. they'd only have to screw up once to be detectable by this system.
A consumer-grade device to perform a quick run over my hotel/airbnb that detects 90% (or even 50%) of hidden cameras would be useful because the status quo (doing nothing) detects ~0%.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device)
And then I thought, something similar might be possible for video. Turns out, yep.
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8719264
The Eye of Sauron paper does acknowledge the limitations that would likely prevent it from working against such a device. Impressive nonetheless. True privacy/security is just very hard!
> In 1985, Wim van Eck published the first unclassified technical analysis of the security risks of emanations from computer monitors.[2][3] This paper caused some consternation in the security community, which had previously believed that such monitoring was a highly sophisticated attack available only to governments; van Eck successfully eavesdropped on a real system, at a range of hundreds of metres, using just $15 worth of equipment plus a television set.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Eck_phreaking
In this context "emanations" means a signal allowing the listener to reconstruct the image and read the words on the screen.
I'm not sure if it works with modern monitors (CRTs were pretty high voltage!), but they are also quite "loud" in EMF. A fun experiment is to walk around your house with a portable radio in AM mode. You can "hear" all the electronics!
That said, if you're using a wireless keyboard it's pretty much a given that the keystrokes can be recovered by timing analysis regardless of the manner of wireless connection. At least unless you happen to hunt and peck painfully slowly.
My father worked in defense. He shared lore about the genesis of tempest, the requirement to use faraday cages to protect secrets, gear, etc.
The story goes that some kind of red team set up shop down the road from some missile tests (or something) with some simple gear. Afterwards, they shared the launch codes used, shocking all the brass. Hence the need for shielded comms.
> The Thing was designed by Soviet Russian inventor Leon Theremin, best known for his invention of the theremin, an electronic musical instrument.
An interesting read is Spy Catchers written by first science officer from MI5 in cold war. he was tasked with reversing listening devices and making them.. it doesnt spill all the beans but givea a good insight into how far they were already then.
u can hardly imagine what tech exists now 40-60 years later as electronics and computers have shrunk drastically and infinitely more weird material properties are discovered....
And the Moog company, specializing in high tech products, started by a cousin of the synthesizer guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moog_Inc.
Also there are ways to detect diode junctions now.
https://media.defense.gov/2021/Jul/13/2002761779/-1/-1/0/LEA...
Haseltine’s The Spy in Moscow Station is also a fascinating account of events.
If the intention is to RF "illuminate" an array of DRAM, portable GaN based amps in different bands capable of directing RF at an area (let's say, with a set of horn antennas on a plastic rolling cart being taken around an office) are also a lot smaller and less power hungry than they used to be.
Edit: Looking at the Zhang PDF, the box next to the laptop in figure 15 is a USRP 210 SDR, and a basic log periodic antenna on a PCB.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=USRP+B210...
https://www.ettus.com/all-products/ub210-kit/
So really this boils down to "we're using a COTS SDR repurposed as a spectrum analyzer and we've written custom software to sniff what it looks like when DRAM is actively being used in a small embedded device". Some serious TSCM firms have been doing this for 35 years, just the equipment is a hell of a lot smaller and cheaper now.
[0] https://youtu.be/0MtRxX0crjU?t=1815
[0] straight link to where he explains retroflection https://youtu.be/0MtRxX0crjU?t=3019
Also many other videos where he explains how to solve hard problems are really good too.
e: There seems to be commercial product using retroreflection advertised Youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaXSRpTeMbU
The idea is that cameras read/write to a disk. That cause electromagnetic radiation that is detectable.
Then this drone does [something/move/stimulus] to trigger more read/write/EM radiation.
But part of me can’t believe this is the cutting edge in 2026? Feels like 60s engineers would’ve thought about this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_junction_detector
But maybe with a sharp filter (there's a gap between up- and downlink) it can be used with a RTLSDR. But the RTLSDR hates close strong signals as its 8-Bit ADC doesn't have much dynamic range.
I'm actually quite certain that he did. Imagine the scoop, opening your conference presentation with what you found upstairs the evening before!
Ensuring almost perfect shielding is cheaper and simpler. The camera should be completely enclosed in a metallic case, with only 2 small holes, for the camera lens and for the antenna output. Also its schematic should include adequate filtering components superposed to the integrated circuit packages, to minimize the length of the metal traces with variable potential, which radiate electromagnetic waves.
Improved shielding and filtering should reduce a lot the detection distance from the 20 meter range obtained with ordinary cameras, perhaps to a range under 1 meter.
If the camera is designed to not watch continuously, but to halt its activity for random intervals, it may have great chances to not be detected even by close sweeps with the camera detector.
AKA, you know, Peter Thiel.
What I'm most surprised about is just how well it actually works... I did not think such EM fluctuations would be usably detectable from several meters away... but I suppose this may be moreso due to improper/lack of shielding in the first place, which I would think should be easily fixable in most products to mitigate this type of detection.
With a bit of practice it's actually quite easy to understand the accent of Chinese speakers as they have some typical patterns and speak slowly.
I must say, I loved listening to him because this was genuine human work. Human made slides (with lots of ugliness coming with PowerPoint), human typos, human grammar mistakes, all of it. It may be flawed in some ways but this fully removed any doubts that a slop machine came even near it. So refreshing in this day and age!
> they can be disgusted
I think the speaker genuinely gets that word wrong; a malapropism (as opposed to the auto-generated English subtitles getting it wrong).
You can also have opto-mechanical listening devices where the electronics are 100 m away. There is a vibrating membrane at one end, and a laser through the fiber reads the vibrations.
IIUC, the EMR increases following scene changes (like a light being turned on or off) are a result of the fact that video codecs try hard to compress similar images. So, I speculate that an "extremely bad codec" that simply dumps raw pixels to storage would not produce such variation, and therefore remain undetectable?
A better mitigation might be to take a leaf from cryptography and develop a constant-time codec.
Long story short: I'd like this device please.
A consumer-grade device to perform a quick run over my hotel/airbnb that detects 90% (or even 50%) of hidden cameras would be useful because the status quo (doing nothing) detects ~0%.